Mischief Makers Episode 17: Richard Baker
[Upbeat music plays]Host: Welcome to Mischief Makers, your one stop shop for all things Mischief. Join your host Dave Hearn, as he finds out what makes Mischief... well, Mischief!Dave Hearn: Hello and welcome to another episode of Mischief Makers, with me Dave Hearn. And with me today I have the wonderful Mr Richard Baker! Hello Richard!Richard Baker: Hello Dave! How are you?DH: I'm very well thank you, how are you?RB: Yeah, good. I mean, I feel... I feel like that's a strange thing to start a podcast with, but it's a nice thing to start a conversation with so...DH: Why is it a strange thing?[RB laughs]RB: I don't know, I feel like it’s not very official. I feel like it’s a, like a... It's just sort of a casual... I don't know, it felt casual. Who knows!DH: Bit of a, bit of a sort of a weird stop gap.RB: YeahDH: Just kind of like, how are you? Lovely weather.RB: Yeah exactly. It's just kind of... It’s that sort of... Its conversation when there is no conversation. Which doesn't bode well for a podcast, I guess.DH: No because it is purely conversation.RB: Yeah.[Both laugh]DH: And there was none.[Both laugh]RB: And now that's a solid minute of that we've done now probably. So, good, I'm glad we've...DH: Yeah, we're on about 50 seconds of talking about talking. It's a good start![Both laugh]RB: Yeah, it’s gone conceptual really early. Good.DH: [Agrees] So, so, for listeners who don't know Richard Baker perhaps as well, because you are more of a man behind the scenes: Richard is one of the composers of the music for Peter Pan Goes Wrong, as well as a very gifted improvising musician.Now, usually what happens is the, kind of, interview is split into sections and I get everyone to improvise a jingle.RB: Sure.DH: And the first section is the Getting to Know You section. But Rich has very kindly... You did these in one take right?RB: Yeah.DH: You've improvised some jingles for us.RB: So, yeah. I know that there's the whole thing of this is that you don't want it to be edited. You don't want it to be... Yeah, it’s a one take kind of deal isn't it?[DH agrees]RB: So, I figured the same thing applies to this. So, you did give me fair warning, but, I've made a point of, if I recorded any of this then I just did the bits of it in one take. If that sort of makes sense. So, yeah, it’s sort of a... Sort of a one take jingle attempt. Yeah.DH: One take wonder! Ok, well, this is the Getting to Know You jingle by Richard Baker. I don't know if this is going to work. I've never attempted this before. So, we're going to find out! Here we go...[Lively piano music plays and RB sings "Getting to Know You"]RB: [Talking] Great!DH: I like it a lot!RB: It worked for me. I mean, it was... Yeah, it's not the most intelligent thing I've ever written, but you know, it says what it needed to so...DH: Ok, well I have two questions for you based on that. The first one is how do you think it went now you're hearing it back?RB: Oh, the jingle?DH: Yeah.RB: Yeah, I think it was... I mean, I think the first half was better than the second half. I think it started with a kinda a funk thing in the piano. There was like a syncopated rhythm and then it just went... It went a bit... I don't know. I think I got a bit...DH: It lost its way?RB: Yeah, I got a bit self-indulgent with it. [Laughs] I got a bit sort of, I don't know, I thought I could riff. I was wrong. But...DH: That's quite a journey to go on in essentially, sort of, three or four seconds!RB: Yeah, well I... who knows! It's a... It’s a downhill... And I think, as we'll discover later, the other jingles are no better, I think.[DH laughs]DH: I look forward to them!RB: I think its only downhill from there! The last one especially I definitely just completely screwed up note. But I was being true to the one take of it so hey...DH: Oh well, you're a good man! Well, the second question I have is you said it's not the most intelligent thing you've ever written. Can you recall the most intelligent thing you've ever written?RB: [Thinking] Oooh, erm... I... I don't know... Now I've sort of... Now I've said that, I don't... I worry... I worry that it might be![Both laugh]RB: I don't know. It's... I'm writing a thing at the moment that pretty kind of... That's, I don't know about intelligent, but it’s... It's definitely... I'm aiming for layers certainly. Writing a musical at the moment where it’s a lot of kind of intertwining ideas and you see a lot of the same... the same stories from different perspectives. And it's sort of an attempt at being clever I guess. It's an attempt at doing something that is intelligent. But, yeah... I don't know. I do not know. It's... That's already stumped me, which again does not bode well![DH laughs]DH: I suppose in terms of music, it's something that you... If music is intelligent, or however you were to kind of describe it, I guess you only ever know in retrospect. Sort of once its finished and out there.RB: Yeah, I guess it's like most writing isn't it? It’s like its... Most people analyse writing and writers and what they do, and a lot of people who analyse it get a lot more out of it than the writers ever do I guess! So... Yeah... [DH agrees] I guess it’s in other people's opinions. Maybe I should ask you then, what's the most intelligent thing I've ever written Dave?DH: Most intelligent thing you've ever written? [Pause] Probably the... Probably that jingle!RB: Great! Let's go with that then![DH laughs]DH: I think that some of the most... I mean it's hard, because, I think some of the most intelligent stuff that you've done is, for me, it’s probably some of the improv stuff. But then it’s hard to, like, recall specifically because musically I am... weak.[Both laugh]RB: That's... Don't... That's... Don't put yourself down like that sir! It's... I mean, it's... Yeah music... I guess for the improv stuff it's always... Sort of, it's always in context as well. So, it's always... As long as you're doing something that makes sense.... I mean I guess it's the same for you guys on stage with it. But I guess if you're on stage and you're able to do a callback to something you did half an hour before and you know it and the audience knows it and everybody sort of joins in the moment. Then I guess it’s the same thing as, for me musically, if I put in a tune at the beginning of the show and then 45 minutes later it comes back because that character comes back, then I feel great about that. And there might be one audience member that sort of goes "oh! I see that he's done." But otherwise, it's... That's sort of, mostly, for me, I guess. But yeah... I mean, how does it feel for you guys on stage with that? Is that the sort of thing that you aim to do? Is that sort of...DH: Yeah, I guess we never specifically aim for anything kind of being intelligent, I guess. It's more... I guess it's more your kind of trying to construct the story. With Mischief Movie Night specifically, it's a kind of clown show because you're trying to do something that you're going to fail at. Which is to try and create a movie on stage. And so, in doing so, you're inevitably, kind of, going to have to be funny. I guess, the idea is that the story itself is enough to be a show in and of itself and comedy should be a side effect. And I guess musically, and in terms of the lights and stuff as well actually, all of that tech stuff supports that. But then the better you get at it, and I think the better musicians you have, you find that the musicians can kind of make narrative offers based on... And this is kind of in very remedial terms. But if someone walks on stage and there's a... You know, an ominous sound given to you by a musician, then you kind of go "Oh, ok! Great! That kind of gives me a bit of an idea of who, or what, my character is."RB: Yeah. Well, I mean, I... You're right, it's kind of a... Because, half the time I assume that if you notice what the musician's doing, they're probably doing something wrong, or too much. They're probably... They're probably getting in the way. But at the same time... I think definitely with you, as well, over the years... Because I've known you for what seven? Eight years? Something like that. [Dave agrees] And it definitely got to the point, especially when we were at the Arts Theatre with Movie Night, that I got... Because it was me and it was another musician, there were two of us, Chris Ash.DH: Yes, Showstoppers.RB: Yes. And it suddenly got to the point with... I don't know how Chris felt. But I can't speak for him, but where it was very easy with you especially to tell in a scene when you were about to do an exit line. That was something I got, I think immodestly, I got quite good at. At knowing when you were leading to having a, like a bam, and we go, and there's the next scene kind of exit line. And it's things like that, where I can... I guess if I'm accompanying that then I make a point of dropping... If I time it right, in an ideal world, I drop out just before you say that line and smash back in with some nice driving music after it. And it's stuff like that, I guess, where it's just trying to, yeah, serve whatever story point we're at. And it’s trying to, to keep the narrative going.DH: [Agrees] And I guess that's... I guess that's something for an audience that, in terms of the mechanics specifically of improv, because we talk about quite a lot, sort of killer lines and ending scenes...RB: Yeah.DH: But, yeah, the mechanics of it that, hopefully, an audience might not recognise and might not even think twice about. There's just the kind of satisfying feeling at the end when, you know, an actor says a big killer line, the music cuts out, cuts back in and the lights go, and then Jon comes up and says "into the next scene." And you... I reckon it probably... I've always had the, kind of idea that the first... You lose the audience in the first five minutes or you win them in the first five minutes. But really, you've probably got about thirty seconds. Like, if you come on and do something really impressive, end that first scene really well, lights, music, you get a good bit of story, a good bit of confident improv, the audience... You can kind of feel the room breathe.RB: Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah.DH: And everyone goes "Oh! Ok, yeah this isn't going to be shit! This is going to be fun."RB: [Laughing] Yeah.DH: And I think, that's... That's our responsibility, as performers. But I think a huge part of that is (the almost subliminal part) of it is the music. Where you... Nothing feels at odds, even in those first five minutes everything kind of feels like it's meant to be like this somehow. And that's a really satisfying feeling.RB: Yeah, and you're right. And it’s exactly the same really. I feel most similar to a technician in those moments as well. So, it's the same with any sound effects there are and all of the lighting cues. If it just happens, and it happens immediately then it is... I mean it’s really satisfying for us as well, I think. I hope. But yeah, it's certainly... Certainly from an audience there's that relaxation. There's that sense of like "Phew! Ok, yes, the've got this! It's ok!" Yeah.DH: Yeah. So, tell us, actually, a bit about how you came to work with Mischief.RB: Sure. So, I know a lot of the original Mischief "family" I guess, were LAMDA based. [DH agrees] They'd trained at LAMDA in, what, 2011? 2012? Around that kind of time?DH: Yeah.RB: And I... I also trained at LAMDA on their MD course. On their one-year MD course in 2012 to 2013. And I think so happened that you guys were still rehearsing in a room at LAMDA. And I can't remember who it was that I first got in contact with. I think it might have been (I know you've had him on the podcast already) it might well have been Rob Falconer. It might well have been Rob that sort of... Oh! No! It might have been Kieran Stallard back then.DH: Oh yeah!RB: There's a couple of possible names of people it might have been that were playing for you intermittently at that time.DH: Yeah.RB: But, yeah, because... In fact, yes, it will have been Kieran, because, he was on the MD course before me, so we knew each other. And, yeah, I just... I think I turned up at a couple of rehearsals and played along and sort of did that quite informally. And then for what must have been Edinburgh 2013, I was up at the festival anyway with a couple of other different shows back then. And then Rob needed cover for about a week. And I sort of got thrown into it in the middle of August. And suddenly I was doing shows! [DH laughs] We were at, erm... which one? Do I mean Underbelly?DH: Yeah, we had C Venues, Underbelly...RB: Yeah, so it was after C Venues. So, I think it was Underbelly.DH: Yeah.RB: And we were in something that basically looked like an, a kind of an air raid bunker. And, there were.... Yeah it was something like a 150-seater, and I remember...DH: Oh, was it like the White Belly? Really long...RB: Yes!DH: Really long, thin, with a like catwalk in the middle?RB: Yeah, like a half cylinder with a catwalk down the middle. Yeah! Yeah!DH: Yeah! That was very weird!RB: It was, it was a strange space yeah! Because... We were in... I can't remember who else was in that room. Either before or after us there was a guy called John Robertson who does a show called The Dark Room. And he, because, it’s sort of like a first-person game play... One of those old kind of like PC gamers type, geek fest kind of show. I mean that in a loving way![DH laughs]RB: But, yeah, and he's still going I think, still doing shows. I see him on Twitter. But, anyway, yeah, we were in this space and I was suddenly doing a week's worth of shows. I did three shows, I think, with Rob, playing with both of us. Me on keys and him on guitar and cajon and everything else he can play because he is ridiculous. And then suddenly Rob was gone. Rob was at a wedding, I think? And I was suddenly playing with you guys for a week having only known you for a matter of months and been at maybe four rehearsals. And so, yeah, that was how I sort of started with you guys. And then I've sort of clung on ever since, because, Peter Pan came not long after that I think, so yeah...DH: So how did you feel in those first shows then? Like, once you'd done it with Rob and then he'd, you know... He had abandoned you. You were solo. How did that feel?[RB laughs]RB: Yes. Inconsiderate bastard! Yes. I mean it's initially always going to be a bit... I don't know, there's something... There's something about improv. There's that's part of me that every time I do it, no matter what it is, no matter which group I'm improvising with, there's a part of me that after a show always goes "well why do I do this to myself." There's a part of me that goes "this is a terrible idea! This is invoking such kind of immediate panic in me!" And it’s usually... So, the time I really noticed it was, and you've done this as well, you've done the Improvathon right? You've done the...DH: Yeah, I've done a couple of hours.RB: You've done a couple of hours. I've... Stupidly, I've done... I say stupidly, I've done all 50. One year I did the whole 50.DH: Wow!RB: Yeah!
DH: So, just for our listeners who don't know much about it...RB: Oh yeah!DH: Can you just let them know what the Improvathon is?RB: Sure, so, yeah, it’s... Essentially, it's a 50 hour marathon of improvisation. It's a... In Canada they call it the Soap-a-thon, because, it's long form improv. There's a storyline all the way through, you've got characters coming in and coming out. But otherwise it starts on a Friday at sort of, well traditionally, it started on a Friday at 7.00pm and finished on Sunday at 9.00pm. And it’s sort of in two hour episodes, but you get a break for five minutes every couple of hours in order to just, you know, recover for a moment. And there are always some audience that stick it out for the whole thing. And then a lot of audience that come in and just watch and episode, or two episodes. But yeah, it’s sort of a mixture between improvisation and an endurance test.[DH agrees]RB: I know it's organised by, amongst other people, Adam Meggido who has also directed Peter Pan and has done various other things with Mischief as well. I am missing out lots of stuff, that's what I know he's done because that's what I've worked on him with. [DH laughs] But yeah, it's that. It's a full weekend of, sort of, watching about twenty to thirty people go either slowly insane or start to hallucinate a bit and either way just lose some inhibitions and sort of just, do whatever improv they feel that they can do in the moment. And it's... It's really exciting to watch. But it's also, kind of, a bit terrifying to do! And the reason I bring it up...DH: So, when you... Sorry to interrupt. But you were going to do... So, you did the full, what was it, fifty hours?RB: Yeah. Fully 50 yeah.DH: So, you, you didn't sleep for fifty hours? Well, probably more because presumably you were awake before it started.RB: Yeah. I worked it out it was like 62 hours by the end, because, you've got to be awake a bit in the day both ends. Yeah, it's... It's... They have a thing that they call the Gates of Hell. Which is on the second overnight, essentially where you start to, no matter how good you are at staying awake, you start to get not... Unhinged is strong word...But... It just gets a bit...[DH laughs]DH: But is it a good word?RB: I mean it's... Yeah, it probably is. It's probably the best way to describe it. You just go a bit not quite... Everything is a bit... Either everything is hilarious, or everything is deadly serious and people get very emotional and very... Its... A lot happens at sort of 3.00am when you've been awake for two days straight. It gets a bit much. And I certainly... I remember there was a... It would be unfair to fair to say I didn't fall asleep, because I did at one point. But it was in the middle of an episode. I was playing for some scene that was set in a hot tub. They were constructing something on stage. It took a very long time. And I was playing a lot of... I was playing a lot of like... I've got a piano here so I can do an impression of it.DH: Oh, ok.RB: I was playing like....[Slow jazz music plays on piano]RB: Like, kind of just like, relaxed jazz kind of feel behind stuff. I have no idea whether my phone...DH: Oh no, yeah, we got it!RB: Ok cool. Yeah, I was playing this kind of relaxed jazz and then I sort of drifted off. Or at least I drifted slightly out of being in the room enough that it felt like I was falling asleep.[DH laughs]RB: And when I woke up, I was sort of in the second verse of a song I was accompanying. And I really remembering waking up really suddenly and then going "oh crap! What have I played up until now" and sort of having to guess what it was that I would have done up to that point in a song that I was asleep for. It gets really surreal. It gets really odd.DH: Guess what your subconscious might have played.RB: Yeah! Yeah, second guess my own chords? I don't know. But, yeah, it's... I don't know why we got on to that but it's... But that's a thing! That happened.DH: But no, doing... I think doing 50 hours is... Because I think I did eight hours. Or maybe six. And that was enough for me! I mean I enjoyed it, but it’s... It's... It becomes a bit of a free-for-all. But I think... I reckon if you were to do (not you but if one was to do) the full 50 hours, I imagine there's a kind of a real sense of an accomplishment. But you must some pretty weird stuff?RB: Yeah, I mean, it’s... There was... It's definitely a feeling of... I was pretty much in tears by the end of the last episode, just from a feeling of pure I made it! It’s that... I've never run a marathon, because I'm not at all a fit person. But I can imagine that at the end of doing an achievement like that, there's that kind of both a sense of relief and release, and also a sense of achievement. And yeah, it's a strange thing to decide to put your own body through if nothing else.DH: And how do you feel about the people who are not performing, but that watch the entire thing for 50 hours? That... Is that quite strange?RB: I mean, it is, and it isn't. The first... I remember I saw it before I played in it. I saw it when it was at somewhere like Hoxton Hall several years ago. I remember going along at 5.00pm and going I'm going to watch an episode of this and see what it's like because I was just getting into the kind of... a couple of improv circles at that point. And I went along, and I watched and episode. And then another. And then another. And I stayed there until 11.00pm or something, until essentially if I knew I would do another episode then I would miss the tube or whatever. But, it’s certainly addictive! It’s certainly the sort of thing where you want to know... If you start caring about characters, then you know that they are going to be there for the next day. So, it's... It's the sort of thing that I can imagine coming back to again and again. It's slightly addictive and it's slightly... yeah...DH: Easy to get sort of hung up on in a way?RB: Yeah, I mean I understand why it’s also called a Soap-a-thon. It’s the sort of thing where I can imagine if you've been watching, I don't know, sort of Eastenders, Coronation Street, one of those sort of things for years then you start to really care about the characters in it. You start to get invested in it. And yeah, I can imagine that.DH: So, what do you feel that you've kind of taken from stuff like the Improvathon and improvising for those kind of 50 hours, working with Mischief and other sort of improv groups? Do you feel... I suppose there's two separate questions that isn't it. What do you feel that you've learnt from working with Mischief and in shows? And what do you feel like you've learnt from improvising for 50 hours?RB: Sure, well, I think with Mischief, again, I think it's kind of what you said about everything serving the story. And I feel like when I'm playing for you guys the actual physical playing is the thing I need to be thinking about the least. And really, it's just a case of... It's really taught me to... Well it's taught me story structure. It's taught me about, sort of, a lot of the mechanical bits and the techniques behind creating an interesting and compelling narrative. But then, also, it's really taught me to watch it and follow it, and to just really get on board with something so that I get invested in it and then I create music in the moment that really... That I care about and hopefully that adds to the experience for everyone. So, yeah, from doing years of improv with you guys it's... You learn things about individual actors, you learn things about how they do certain things. But then also you just learn things about how compelling a story can be. About how to do that. And I guess that's where... Because, obviously with Jon and Hen and Henry, with them writing the bulk of the Mischief material, I guess with them as well, they must've... I've never spoken to them about this. But I guess they must've taken some of their improv experience and put that to good use as well. I don't know. Have you chatted to them about that? Is that sort of thing that they've said?DH: Yeah, I think... I find... Yeah in general, particularly with comedy, and even in stuff that I write as well... Like I've written a couple of things. I'm writing a TV show and I'm writing a play at the moment and I've got a bit stuck on the second act. And I was just kind of... I was having a look at it today and the thing I kept coming back to was... You sort of ask yourself a lot "what is this about? What is this about?" Which in a weird way is probably not a helpful question for improv, if you're halfway through a show going what is this about? And structuring a story in improv often the aim is to kind of doing it with some kind of nuance. Which you can do in a scripted piece obviously. But improv often, particularly at the start of the story, doesn't really afford... There's not much room for nuance. It's often just... You've got to get out the stories so that everyone's kind of as close to the same page as possible and then we can start having fun. That's what Shields calls "doing the admin."RB: Yep, yep.DH: It's kind of getting in there, doing the admin, setting up your structure and your foundations and then you can kind of play. But, yeah, I think definitely I approached it... We often try and fall in love in improv. Create a love story. Create a human element, something that people care about. And that works with all kinds of comedies I think, even with something like The Play That Goes Wrong, which I would say lacks the sort of narrative heart to something like Pan. But, actually, at its heart is this human story of these people really trying to perform a play. So, it's always linked to something very very human, something that you can relate to. And I think, when I was looking at the second act of this thing that I'm stuck on, the words I ended up writing... I just scribbled everything I thought down onto a piece of paper. I ended up writing things like "Love" in giant letters, like where's the love story? Who is in love with who? Is this... Is this compassion? Is it about companionship? Is there a betrayal? And I just sort of... There's a couple of clichés and big themes, but actually from out of it came nuance, came fun ideas, came conflict and it’s all just linked to these, kind of, human ideas. Which sounds quite kind of grand and over the top. But when you're trying to create a story, it's so much easier to kind of patchwork them together with these big human emotions, these big human ideals and concepts, things like, yeah, love and betrayal and deception and all that kind of stuff. And so I think, when you're putting together a narrative, whether you're improvising it or scripting it, or whether you're just doing a balls to the wall funny comedy, if you can kind of keep that beating heart (no matter how faint it is) in the middle, that there's something human happening, I think that will always work. I feel like that's what I have sort of taken from improv mainly.RB: Yeah. I agree and I feel like, again to mention Mr Meggido again, because I think he probably taught, at some point, most of everyone before working with them as well. And I feel like there's a few things that I have definitely heard him echo again and again. Things like fall in love, get to the island, things that drive the story on, that can be really helpful in more than just improv certainly. Yeah.DH: Yeah I think it’s really useful and it's one of those things that you learn in what feels, I guess, like such a basic way and then you just sort of drive it out when you're in front of 200 people. Or sometimes, you know six people.[Both laugh]DH: If you haven't sold that well, which has happened.RB: Ah, Edinburgh Fringe!DH: Yes! Now, keeping with improv for just another question: I remember you and Chris playing for the Mischief Movie Night at the Arts Theatre. You guys were in a really weird position.RB: Yeah.DH: Does the actual physical position of where you are on or off stage help with improvising?RB: Well, so, yeah. I mean most of the... Either the smaller gigs, or when we... Because we had a series of monthly... We had a monthly kind of residence here at the Duchess before we did the Arts as well didn’t we? [DH agrees] And through all of that and basically through the, what was probably four or five years of mostly me playing with Rob, I felt like 99% of the shows we were sat side by side and there would be... It would sort of depend on the show, depending on who was playing keys for it, we would sort of just amuse ourselves by switching it up. But either way, one of would be sat on the keys and one of us would be sat next to with what other instruments the play. So, with me it's bits of guitars and mostly wind instruments, clarinet, sax and stuff like that. And with Rob its mostly stringy things, so like you know banjo and mandolin and guitar and all of that kind of stuff. But either way, we would be sat side by side. We would be sat in a way that we could... And it was usually, we found, that it was whoever was playing the keys part, whoever was playing the keyboard, that was the one kind of in control of it and it would be the other person looking over at their hands. So, it would kind of be to follow what key you were in or to follow timing or that sort of thing. It was usually following the hands of the pianist. So, it became really odd, yeah, you're right, when in the Arts we were up at the upper level, right in the corner essentially, right near the proscenium arch. I can't remember whether there is one in the Arts. But, yeah, we were up by those bass speakers. We were like sat on the speakers in the corners and it meant that we were 30 feet apart as I was looking at him right across the other side of the theatre.DH: Yeah!RB: It meant that half... Like some of the time it meant that it felt amazing when we timed something together still, because we were doing it by intuition rather than by knowing. But then, also, there were a fair few times when one of us made a choice and the other one had to go "Oh right! Ok, we're doing that," and sort of pick it up a split second later, because they, yeah... It was certainly... It was a different experience. It became... I got quite used to... I think we both got quite used to knowing what the other one might do and knowing what we might.... Like I'm going to keep my hands off the keys for this one because I think you're go to do something. That sort of stuff. We got really good at guessing which... Like this is pointless musical nerdery as well. We got really good at guessing the key signature that the other one might do as well. Like nobody cares.
DH: What is the key signature?RB: So, like, if something is in the key of D or whatever then it would be in this specific key.[RB plays example notes in D on the piano]RB: There was no real rhyme or reason to it. Like, historically, there's reasons for things to be in a certain key. Historically, if something was in... I can't remember this and I'm trying to vaguely remember back to music education. But historically if something was in like D or G then it's probably a king appearing. Historically if it was in F or B Flat then it might be a countryside thing. But we didn't really think about that, we just sort of just got quite good at guessing and that's a really pointless musical game for us.DH: Yeah, sure. No, I like it. Could you just improvise us, like, a king's entrance in D?RB: So, yeah, in D I guess it would be like a fanfare thing. So, it would be like a...[RB plays dramatic piano fanfare in D]RB: Something like that, yeah, would be a kingly kind of entrance. Whereas, yeah, putting something in... Supposedly if you are gonna do then something, like I said, like a (what's the word? There is a word for it) like a pastoral theme. Like a countryside theme. Then supposedly something like F major is better for that. There's a really traditional... There's...[RB plays short, slow, quiet tune on piano]RB: That tune that is in F. I hope... That's got to be out of copyright. That’s fine for a podcast right?DH: Yeah, no, that's fine.RB: But, either way, yeah, so a countryside theme might be....[RB plays a short, bright, cheerful tune on piano]RB: Might be in F and it might sound a bit more... Yeah. A bit more like that. I don't know, but either way, there's some...DH: So yeah, I suppose you're sort of saying that you didn't apply that strict logic with the other person you were playing with, but it was sort of an applied understanding almost?RB: Yeah. We just kind of, I guess, partially because there's only so many keys in the world. There's only, you know, 12 notes in a scale or whatever. Then, you... I say or whatever, I really should know the answer to how many notes there are in a... There's 12. Then there's... Then it just gets to the point with a person where you get really used to how they might do something. How they might think. Like if you guys get called a thriller but it's set in Iceland and it's called usually something like Ice This. Or whatever.[DH laughs]RB: And... That seemed to be like the fallback position for the Movie Night stuff. It was...DH: It often was.RB: If there wasn't a better title, it would be a word connected to it followed by "this" or "that". So yeah...[DH agrees]RB: It usually got to the point with those where we would sort of look at each other and go "ok." And then one of us would take the lead and the other one would "yeah I thought you'd be in B Flat." Or "ooh yeah I thought you'd do this." And then, yeah, I don't know.DH: Was there ever a scenario in which you both came in at the same time in completely different keys?RB: Oh! All the time! God! Yeah! It was constant, like probably at least once or twice every show. There would be a moment that we would both try and do. And some of the most awful choices have definitely... I mean, there's been many, many more shows where I guess you guys have probably come off stage and I've heard somebody apologise to somebody else. Like I've heard somebody go "I'm so... I don't know why I chose to do that. I don't know why I jumped in there."DH: Oh yeah, it's standard.RB: And it happened all the time with us as well. [Laughs] Oh yeah, I have a real memory of there was one show and it was... I can't remember when it was in the run. But I remember there was a song in it that Henry Lewis led that was... The lyrics were something like "Put it in your orifice, whichever one you choose. Put it in your orifice, it’s the perfect cure for the blues." And I have a really distinct memory of that for two reasons: one because the first thing Henry did when he came off stage was apologise to everyone and say "look I'm so sorry, I don't know which part of my brain produced that." And also, I remember that, because, that was also the show where a lot of my students came to watch. I had about 15 to 20 students that I teach come in and that's the only thing they sang at me for the next six months. So, that happened...DH: Well, that sounds like a Friday, Saturday night show. You know, the audience are up for that. In context it probably worked.RB: Yeah. Oh, I'm sure it at least was good for the audience. Yeah, I'm sure!DH: So, you had some students that you teach at Urdang is that right?RB: Um. Well, so, no. I've recently been doing some stuff at Urdang. Those students were, unhelpfully, those students were, younger than Urdang students. They were out of a group called Sharpe Academy that is like a performing arts academy that at the time only had students that were aged up to 18. So, yeah, that was definitely a load of like, under 18s in there, then that singing that at me. But yeah...[DH laughs]RB: Yeah, I taught there for a while. So, yeah when I'm not composing, I'm mostly, or improvising, I'm essentially either a MD for other shows or teaching as well. So, a singing/vocal teacher, that kind of stuff.DH: Wow, so things like technique and how to use your voice properly?RB: Yeah, technique, rep classes, like, helping actors prep for auditions. All that kind of stuff. It's all... It's sort of... I think with musicians, as much as with actors, I know that... I don't know how much of this you've experienced, but you find you have to be many things to many different people. You've got to be able to produce whatever it is that people need, rather than necessarily focusing on just being one thing. Just being... I mean obviously you're an actor, I presume, I don't know if you think of yourself as an actor first and foremost? I don't know. But, if you are also doing more and more writing and everything else that people might require, I don't know. What else is in your... What other strings are in your bow?DH: Strings to my bow Richard... Well... You've got loudness. Erm. Speed. Quickness and swiftness. Now you might think they're the same thing but they're subtly different.[RB laughs and agrees]DH: I said loudness.RB: Yeah, you said that but there's no harm in saying it again.DH: Hmm, yeah, double loud! Yeah, I think the strings to my bow are really commitment. What you get from me is commitment and attack often. I'm sort of, unofficially, in Mischief known as the one who kind of ends up... I'll do all the jokes that I think (that we all think) won’t work but we have to try them.[RB laughs]RB: Sure, yeah, front footed yeah.DH: Yeah, yeah, I'm on the front foot. Now, I'm going to slightly redirect us to some Questions From the Web. Which means, it's time (let me just get this up) for another jingle!RB: Oh![Dramatic Questions From The Web Jingle is played on piano with RB chanting "questions from the web"]DH: I liked that one a lot!RB: I mean, yeah, again it's the... I think the problem with it is the ending again. It has a build; it goes somewhere and then it’s sort of a bit anticlimactic again. I think that's going to be the pattern.DH: Oh no I think you've got it! I think that's what you want, because you don't want it to be like "Questions From the Web" and then it just to be like we're done now, because we are about to go into Questions From the Web. So, you kind of want it to lead in.RB: Yeah? Yes? Yes! And yet we stalled it with this. So, go!DH: Ok here we go! So, the first question is from a lady called Amy Beer. I wonder if she drinks beer.RB: Who knows, strong name!DH: It is a good name. Amy Beer. She says, what is your guilty pleasure song?RB: Oooh. Erm. I don't know, because, I... I guess with guilty pleasures you've got to be guilty about them and I'm quite willing to kind of listen to most... Actually, the best answer for this is the some of the first music I bought, like the first album I bought, which is... To most people would be a guilty pleasure. So, it was Steps, Steptacular, the first album I ever bought. Let’s go with that.DH: Steptacular!RB: Yeah!DH: I suppose, is it... Yeah, it doesn't have to be necessarily be something you feel guilty about, but something you probably should feel guilty about.RB: Yeah, maybe. Maybe it's that. Maybe it's I should like, societally, have shame. In which case (with no offence intended to the members of Steps) I guess it's probably that. So, there we goDH: And, Steptacular, is that the title of it?RB: Yes, it is the title. Yeah, I think it was '99 or 2000, somewhere around there yeah.DH: Are we talking... Is Tragedy on that? Is that the kind of era we're talking?RB: [Hesitating] I.... I think it’s the right kind of era, I don't think Tragedy was on that one. I think it was... I definitely...DH: You're dodging the question; I think you know more about Steps than you're letting on.RB: No, I can name you Steps songs, I just don't know what was on that album.[DH laughs]RB: I think like... I think Better Best Forgotten maybe was on that album. Or, Deeper Shade of Blue.DH: Oh yeah, I remember that! These are all great![RH sings "Deeper Shade of Blue"]RB: Yeah great song! And they're all wearing blue in the video I think, because, you know, words! So, yeah, there were hits like that. Let’s go with that.DH: Ok, well I tell you what, could you... I don't know if you're up for this, but could you try and improvise us, like a chorus using the phrase "guilty pleasure song."RB: Using the phrase "guilty pleasure song?"DH: Yeah, or about a guilty pleasure song.RB: Yeah, before I... I will willingly do this, but more often than not it was other people singing and me just playing the piano so this might go really badly.DH: I look forward to this immensely.[RB laughs and starts playing a fast tempo tune on the piano then pauses]RB: Oh, that's such a horribly improv chorus. But here we go.[Piano continues]RB: [Singing] I don't know what you see that's so wrong, it's just my guilty pleasure song![Piano playing stops]RB: I don't know it goes somewhere from there, that's probably enough.DH: That was great!!RB: That's such a... That is essentially the way I, if I can't think of anything else, that I start every improv show. If there's like a "everybody meets in a market square" then it’s...[RB plays more lively piano music]RB: It’s probably something like thatDH: Some sort of staccato...RB: Yeah, probably something you can just like...DH: What key was that in?RB: That was in D! That was... I'm obsessed with D major today.DH: The king's key!RB: One of... certainly one of the king's keys. So, it was a very... It was a king's guilty pleasure song. He was discussing his love of Steps to his subjects, I guess.[DH laughs]DH: His courtly pleasures. The next question we have is from Katriona who is a big fan of ours. Have you met Katriona before?RB: Oh yes! Yes, yes, yes! She came to a couple of other shows that I did elsewhere as well. She's, yeah, a big fan.DH: Oh, very good! Very loyal! Hello Katriona. She says, when you're providing music for improv shows, can you remember afterwards the melodies you made up? And can you play them again, or are they just in the moment and then lost?RB: Ooh. That's a really good question. I think most of them kind of get lost at least by the time that I've finished that show. I think, like, with a lot of them... This is kind of... I mean unless it’s a song like Put It In Your Orifice which is going to stick with me for life.[DH laughs]RB: Then, I think most of them I at least remember for the hour or however long the show is. Just in case they come back. Or just in case, in the case Movie Night, in case Jon goes let's have a reprise of that song. Then if I can't remember how to play that song then I'm screwed. So, I at least remember it for that long. But, yeah, most of them are probably gone forever. Most of them live in the moment and then are no more.DH: There's something quite cool about that isn't there? That makes them weirdly precious and disposable at the same time.RB: Beautifully put. Yeah, no, there's something... Something lovely about it that you had to be in the room. You had to be there to experience it or whatever it is, yeah yeah yeah.
DH: Well yeah, we find that if you watch recordings of improv, no matter how good or bad the show was, it always seems bad. And I think even if we've had like a professional recording of one of our best shows at the Arts or on tour, I feel like even if you've watched that as an audience. Even if you love Mischief. Even if you're like a crazy superfan and you think we're the best people ever. I think you would even watch one of those shows and be like "oh. This isn't as good." But then you could probably watch a less good show in the room and think it was absolutely spectacular.RB: Yeah, and there's something about improv as well that if as an audience member it’s not the sort of thing that you can, that you do, then it feels even more magical. It feels like they're literally doing the magic trick in front of you. It feels like, how are these people coming up with this based on something I just said. And, yeah, I think I agree it's difficult to try and... I mean I guess is this why... I know that there hasn't been a lot of improv on TV as well, for example, apart from historically stuff like Whose Line and those kind of quick comedy shows. But I guess it’s a lot more tricky to put sort of story based improv on TV for that reason: if you're not in the room then it’s not as exciting to watch. I don't know, it’s difficult.DH: Yeah, I think, we've looked into it in the past. I think in order to do a kind of long form show you would probably need to reduce it to about a 30 minutes.RB: Right.DH: And I think as well, another thing, you would either have to have it genuinely be actually live, going out live.RH: Yeah.DH: And you could do a thing where you use social media and you have people tweet in suggestions or something so that people at home could feel like they're making a difference to the narrative. I think the intrigue of it, and the joy of improv for the people watching is that even if you haven't contributed an idea directly, but we as a collective, we as an audience, we as viewers have helped to create something that is for us and only for us. So I think if you put it out to, you know, however many thousands or millions or whatever of people, maybe that kind of sense of unity is lost somehow, because you're physically disconnected from everyone.RB: Yeah and I guess it makes it, even if you explicitly say at the beginning "this is" either "going out live" or "this was done in one" or "this was" whatever it was then it still makes it, sort of... You assume that it's not. You sort of assume that it's... That, because it's TV and most of TV is either... If it's not like live news or whatever, then you mostly assume that everything else is pre-recorded. You mostly assume... You'll sit there and go "oh ok, so this is a comedy thing that is planned." And yeah, I guess it makes it less believable, I don't know does that work.DH: Yeah, I know what you mean. I think there's a certain amount of healthy cynicism, particularly in the UK.RB: Oh yes!DH: I think particularly when it comes to improv and comedy as well.RB: Yeah yeah yeah. Oh yeah, I mean the amount of... I mean that sort of comes with the suggestions you get as well. That's the problem with doing social media stuff I guess is you'll get a lot of people just shouting swear words at you over Twitter. You'll just get a lot of people. Or like, I think, would you say that every second or third show at least (because we always ask for a movie genre) and, like, at least once every couple of days, we'd get Bollywood or porn. We'd get something that was just, like either impossible to do or difficult to do or would look like a strange stereotype or is just plain inappropriate and like nudity. And I feel like, yeah, an English audience especially, especially after a drink or two, you've got someone in the audience going "yeah, do porn! Do that!" Then...DH: Yeah... I think it’s this desire to kind of challenge, but also there's that kind of thing that people quite like to break stuff.[RB laughs]RB: Yes, yeah.DH: And I think, ultimately, I kind of get that, because, if you're improvising and you're coming out going... It's quite arrogant isn't it. You're going right, we've got this bunch of people who have, you know we've worked very hard and we rehearse but its less rehearsal and more practise, because we don't actually know what we're going to do. But you've got this bunch of people who are kind of coming out and going "look we've practised but we've got no idea what's going to happen. So why don't you tell us all what you want to see. Oh, and by the way we're going to charge you for it."[RB laughs]RB: Yeah.DH: And, like, you might just be like "alright, well do this then. Do this really hard thing then." But it's trying to break that programme I guess with audiences that we try and do at the top of the show. Where you kind of go "oh no you do have an opportunity to have a really genuinely good time and see something really impressive and really fun so let’s do that."RB: Yeah, it’s like "you can request an hour of German expressionist cinema, but you won't enjoy it." Like, allow it... We'll put in flavours of the ridiculous things you request, but also this will be a... We're allowing this to be a good show. Yeah, yeah yeah.DH: Yup. Ok, so, we're unfortunately, slightly running out... Well no, quickly running out of time, slowly wouldn't be a problem. Well, the time is moving at the same pace...RB: Oh! Sorry! Hello!DH: Did you lose me then?RB: Yeah, I lost you entirely there, yeah.DH: Oh, that was weird. Well I was just explaining that we're running out of time.RB: Oh! Well! Maybe that was the...DH: So, we'll move on... We're going to move on to the Quick Fire Round. I keep calling them rounds, it’s a section.RB: Ok.DH: Here is your Quickfire jingle.[Suspenseful Quickfire piano jingle plays ending with RH singing "quickfire"]DH: Nice!RB: I mean that's... That's... That was definitely in one take and I apologise to anyone listening to this for the jingles. Yeah, that was not my best work.DH: I think if anybody is listening to this for the jingles they've come to the wrong place.[Both laugh]DH: You should look elsewhere for your jingles.RB: Yeah.DH: Well this, to be fair, is probably the best they've been.RB: I'm... I'm flattered, I mean it’s probably the most detailed they've been, maybe not the best but hey...DH: Well Chris Leask's ones were... varied...RB: Sure...[Both laugh]DH: So, for this final section I am going to ask you some questions. Just answer them as fast as you can.RB: Ok.DH: Are you ready?RB: No but go for it.DH: Ok, what is your favourite colour?RB: PurpleDH: If you were an animal what would you be?RB: A bear?DH: Nice. If you could describe yourself as a dessert, what dessert would you be?RB: Erm. Eton Mess, I guess.DH: Nice![RB laughs]DH: Is a Jaffa Cake a cake or a biscuit?RB: It's a cake. It's obviously a cake. It's not a... It's soft and goes hard when it... Yeah, it’s a cake. It’s a cake.[DH laughs]DH: If you were to be one of the 52 cards, which one would you be?RB: Oooh, erm, probably... I don't know, like, somewhere in the middle. Like a seven of hearts. Yeah. Seven of hearts.DH: Nice, modest.RB: Thanks.DH: Left or right?RB: Right.DH: Right or wrong?RB: Right.DH: What is your favourite film?RB: The first one I thought of when you said that was Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind. So, let’s go with that.DH: Excellent!RB: I've probably seen that too many times.DH: And what is your favourite piece of classical music?RB: Oooh, it's not really classical, it's jazz, but it's probably Rhapsody in Blue, Gershwin. It's, yeah, that. It's not really classical but that's not really the right answer, that's a cheat. That's a lie.DH: No, it's good. It's a favourite piece of music, that's what we'll go with. And, finally, do you have any sort of top TV recommendations, or anything that you think people should watch, read or listen to?RB: Well, at the moment I'm re-watching, not re-watching but finally getting round to watching, the US Office. The Office, the US version.DH: It's very good isn't it.RB: It's very good yeah. I sort of assumed... I had cynicism because, obviously, the UK Office was comedy when I was growing up and so you get used to that and you just think, well it's going to be rubbish, the US version. It's just... Because you assume the US, or the non-original versions of things, aren't going to be as good. But it’s a different show and it's good. It's just good.DH: I was exactly the same.RB: Yeah.DH: But I really like it. Well Rich, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. I actually don't usually do this, but could you give us a closing jingle?RB: Erm, a closing... Erm yes... Sure... Erm...[RB plays slow closing music on piano]RB: I haven't planned any words. Erm.DH: Oh, ok, well I tell you what. You keep playing that and I'm going to, like read the closing bit and then the final sentence is going to be "thanks for listening and keep making Mischief." And then you can end it.RB: I'll try and do it like a killer line. I'll try and play the end out.DH: Ok right. [Accompanied by RB on piano] Thank you very much for listening, I've been Dave Hearn talking to the wonderful Mr Richard Baker.RB: I've been Richard Baker.DH: You've been Richard Baker. Please do keep an eye out for our next episode. You can follow all the latest news in the Mischief world by following our Twitter: @MischiefComedy. Ladies and Gentlemen, thank you for listening and keep making Mischief."[Dramatic final flourish on the piano]DH: Nice!Thanks to Claire R. for the transcription of this interview